Does your HQ *really* want to know about hazing?

[shinerbock]

Alright, sorry I haven't been keeping up, I'll try and respond but if I miss something remind me and i'll get to it. Regarding change, sure obviously the members have a certain amount of power, and I have been to both national conventions, as well as led focus groups at regional convention regarding recruitment practices and new member education. Maybe I mispoke regarding an overhaul, because I'm not sure that the national organization really could help us other than to have a sort of "hands off" policy, which they basically do. My chapter does well in recruitment, is good on campus, but I think the frustration that my brothers have involve the lack of emphasis nationals puts on realistic improvement. Having turned our chapter around about 15 years ago, I think the guys wish that our fraternity was better nationwide, instead of just in a handful of locations. However, like many national organizations, ours focuses mostly on more of what I would consider to be PC practices. They don't speak much about increasing your campus reputation or getting the best guys in rush, but rather about how to foster diversity and avoid what they consider hazing. I realize to many those things are important, but in our view, they don't really make a fraternity better. It often seems as if they care about numbers and diversity far more than they care about what the end result will be....moving on...In addition to the "PC" things I was talking about, one that really bothered people around my chapter was when nationals changed a part of our literature from "Christian" to "religious." The lines they changed were not just in membership literature, but in several statements which shape the entire foundation of our fraternity. Granted, we continue to use Christian, but the reason for the change indicated to us the direction nationals was moving towards. Regarding telling you my fraternity, I'd rather not, simply because of some of the things I've said that may have ruffled some feathers. I also don't really see that it is important. Also, somebody mentioned whether I would call somebody not from my chapter a brother...To be honest, I'm not sure. I really don't use the term that often to begin with, but I realize thats not really what you're asking. I imagine what you'd rather know is whether I consider myself and my chapter a part of a larger whole, or a seperate entity, and I think its probably some of both. Unfortunately we view the larger whole to be moving away from our ideals, so in that respect we might not wish to be associated. However, regarding the core ideals and the way we feel they are to be practiced, we proudly associate with those. I probably forgot somebody's comment, but i'll get back to it.

[jon1856]

Nice posting but you either gloss over some issues of interested or missed them.

As this posting started on the topic of Risk Management and Hazing et al., you may wish to review the postings on that issue, the links which I provided are just the start.....but they do seem to show that several comments made here were inaccuate...

Your comments about your feelings ( and you seem to be also speaking for rest of your local chapter as well ) while well laid out seem to at times run against each other.

Long story short, drop your National indentification and go local. Your chapter seems to have major issues with you National which are not going to change.

This comment of yours alone:"Also, somebody mentioned whether I would call somebody not from my chapter a brother...To be honest, I'm not sure. I really don't use the term that often to begin with, but I realize thats not really what you're asking. I imagine what you'd rather know is whether I consider myself and my chapter a part of a larger whole, or a seperate entity, and I think its probably some of both. Unfortunately we view the larger whole to be moving away from our ideals, so in that respect we might not wish to be associated. However, regarding the core ideals and the way we feel they are to be practiced, we proudly associate with those." I find 'odd'.
Partly because of your prior postings, in several threads, on Hazing and Drugs, and partly because of what I experienced, learned and believe in the GLO system, and partly because some of your statements run up against each other.

Another thougth/question. You seem to be speaking for yourself and the rest of your 'friends' (as you do not seem able to use Brother). Are you also speaking for the younger members? Are you speaking for your Pledges who most likly do not know or understand what else is going on between you and your National? And if your Pledges ( and for that matter Rushees) are not aware of situation, how can they make any kind of imformed decision on weither or not to join your National Fraternity and chapter of it.

But this is a big world and we all, at least in this culture, have the right to our own experienes, beliefs, thoughts and actions ( as long as they to not cause any harm to others)

[33girl]

While sb can be a jag, I do understand what he's saying here.

He (and I guess his chapter) feels that while the fraternity was founded on things they do believe in, the current leadership of the fraternity isn't following those original ideals and that they've caved to outside pressures. I completely understand the "Christian" to "religious" thing and griping about that. They're not the same thing.

How many times do we hear people talk about corporations and say "what's happening is the opposite of what {insert founder here} would have wanted"? Most people just go on and don't think about it, or the most they'll do is dump their stock and wash their hands of the company. Very few stay around and try to get the company back to where it should be.

There is a difference between changing with the times and going against why you were founded just to placate universities or the press or whoever.

[shinerbock]

Well lets see. I'm not completely sure what I missed or what you you think runs together, but I'll try and respond. Regarding becoming a local fraternity, I don't think it is logistically feasible. Trust me, if we could do it and keep things the same, I think we would. I think I am different than many on this board because my greek affiliation is one that is more towards my local chapter, my school, and the entire southern greek system than anything else. I think most southern greeks would identify loyalty to their school, southern and Christian values, and loyalty to their friends and brothers as their ideals. Regarding speaking for my chapter, I'm sure there are some differences, but seeing as it is often discussed, I think I would be appropriately representative. I think when we take pride in our fraternity, we take pride in our philanthropic and social efforts, much moreso than those of the national organization. Likewise we also take pride in our southern and Christian heritage and beliefs, and the general way we carry ourselves. Obviously much of this isn't really part of our national HQ's identity. Regarding your comments about addressing each another as brother, I disagree on this point as well. For formal situations, sure I would, or I introduce often as "this is my fraternity brother..." but we don't generally take it farther than that. We are a group of very good friends, who always will back one another and give each other a leg up. I realize this may offend some who subscribe to the fraternity manual idea that brotherhood trumps all and is the most important thing in life, but to each their own. Regarding why we couldnt go local, southern campuses arent overly fostering of local fraternities, and like I said, I'm not sure how the University would handle our land lease, insurance, etc...Please let me know what I missed, and I'll get back to it.

[jon1856]

I will start my list with what I said up front: This thread started with or about RM/Hazing. Within this thread, and others, you have stated your perseptions/opinions without any backup or evidence. I provided some and you seemed to have missed it.

And even though I went to school in the NW, I have spent time with Southern Brothers. And I do not recall anything close to:"I think most southern greeks would identify loyalty to their school, southern and Christian values,....." And it it the first time I have ever seen it talked about on any kind of GLO board. Except when talking about Hazing and the Good Old Days.....Down South ( which is usually a code for other "non-PC correct" stuff and somthing I have not heard in the eary 2000's and if I did, it would really bother me....to the point of taking some form of reaction or action)
So perhaps the answer is: "I think I am different than many on this board because my greek affiliation is one that is more towards my local chapter,"
which again goes against everything I have ever experienced, been taught,observed et al....about my chapter house, my fraternity, and the general GLO.

And this comment:"Likewise we also take pride in our southern and Christian heritage and beliefs, and the general way we carry ourselves" is very interesting given some of your prior postings.

And you say this:"We are a group of very good friends, who always will back one another and give each other a leg up. I realize this may offend some who subscribe to the fraternity manual idea that brotherhood trumps all and is the most important thing in life, but to each their own. Regarding why we couldnt go local, southern campuses arent overly fostering of local fraternities, and like I said, I'm not sure how the University would handle our land lease, insurance, etc"....but when I asked you about your rushees and pledges, you failed to answer that whole question.

You seem to want to pick from the University and National just what you want/need and ignore all else. You want a bed, a roof, a beer hall, and the insurance to cover RM but nothing else....? Again, do your rushees and pledges know this? Do they know that you seem to be turning into a near renegade group:"We are a group of very good friends, who always will back one another and give each other a leg up." That sounds more like a Dinning Club to me.

Changes can be from "outside pressures" ie the Real World. Many things have changed since the 1800's. Not all changes are wall paper to make things just look better to press, just to placate universities or whoever and what ever. Groups are not isolated from society. Because they are groups, they attact attention from society and if running outside of it......All groups.

[boz130]

FWIW, there's an important sub-issue within the whole hazing thing. If the chapter has responsible (and I do mean R-E-S-P-O-N-S-I-B-L-E) alumni support, there's not going to be any hazing. Period. If the alums are responsible, they won't allow for it.

Here's the Cliff Notes version of story that many of you can probably relate to. A few years ago I was working with a chapter that expressed an interest in having more alumni support.

They did a Homecoming mailing that brought out 20+ more alums than they'd had in previous years, so things seemed to be moving in the right direction. Upon further examination, however, the guys who were showing up weren't interested in doing the "heavy lifting", except the kind associated with hoisting beer cans to their lips.

The chapter was "challenging" (to put it lightly), and they tried the patience of the few alums that were interested in helping them out. Eventually the chapter was found guilty of a variety of risk management issues, including hazing and drug-related violations. The saddest aspects of this story are as follows:

*Because the chapter had infuriated the few alumni willing to help them (including their chapter advisor), no one was willing to stand up at a meeting with Greek Life & say, "I'll take them on my back and help them get back to normal".

*Not even having a well-known alum who had worked in the university's development office was enough to keep the chapter from a 5-year suspension.

In speaking with staffers from various GLOs, my impression is that they don't want hazing to be associated with their organizations in any form. I highly doubt that there's any benefit to having this stuff hidden.

[jon1856]

Boz130;
Very good posting.
Have seen/heard both sides: alumni stopping stuff and unforunatly alumni coming in during pledging and preaching "the good old days".
And when that happens, more times than not, house gets itself into hot water sooner than later....

[shinerbock]

Well I'm not sure what you don't think I've backed up in regards to hazing. I'm having some trouble following both your posting style and your logic, so bear with me...If you'll tell me your contentions with my comments regarding hazing, I'll gladly respond, but at the moment I'm unsure as to what you are referring to. Regarding me ignoring your questions about our pledges and rushees, once again I'm not sure what you are questioning. I feel confident that our rushees are rushing our chapter much more than they are the national organization, as shown by their distaste regarding the operations of some of the other chapters they visit. I get the feeling that you're accusing us of doing some sort of disservice to them, which I don't understand. Also, I question the amount of time you've spent with "southern brothers." Now, your comments may be realistic if those schools were smaller, but at large southern universities the greek systems tend to share similar interests and ideals. I also have to take issue with your comments regarding southern and Christian heritage. That is something the large majority of fraternities on campuses in the south take pride in. You are right, much of it is "non-PC." For instance, using the term "Christian ideals" isn't PC, as everyone isn't a Christian. However, "religious ideals" means little to us. I don't value all religions the same, so it makes little sense for us to accept them all as valid. If this is too 1800's for you, I'm sorry, but our ideals and beliefs don't change with society. To me, right and wrong are generally the same today as they were 100 years ago. Thus, I think our fraternity's foundation should remain intact, regardless of who decides they are offended by what we believe in. Of course groups are not isolated from society, but the purpose of a private isn't to simply replicate society. We are different, and we are often seperate in our actions and our beliefs...Now, in regards to us picking and choosing from the school and nationals, I don't see this to be the case. We use nationals for insurance, and that is it. My comment regarding our land lease was that I don't know how the university would treat a lease to a non national fraternity (there are none on my campus). Nationals does not benefit us financially other than providing insurance, if anything we benefit them. We constantly raise more money than the large majority of chapters for our philanthropy, and sessions at the conventions we pay for are often taught by our officers. To be clear, our chapter is not like what you believe a fraternity is. We are loyal to one another and our alma mater, but we also value some things more than the fraternity. If there is a seperation between us and HQ, it is them leaving the core values of our fraternity, not us leaving them. As always, please note your questions and I will respond.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by jon1856

I will start my list with what I said up front: This thread started with or about RM/Hazing. Within this thread, and others, you have stated your perseptions/opinions without any backup or evidence. I provided some and you seemed to have missed it.

And even though I went to school in the NW, I have spent time with Southern Brothers. And I do not recall anything close to:"I think most southern greeks would identify loyalty to their school, southern and Christian values,....." And it it the first time I have ever seen it talked about on any kind of GLO board. Except when talking about Hazing and the Good Old Days.....Down South ( which is usually a code for other "non-PC correct" stuff and somthing I have not heard in the eary 2000's and if I did, it would really bother me....to the point of taking some form of reaction or action)
So perhaps the answer is: "I think I am different than many on this board because my greek affiliation is one that is more towards my local chapter,"
which again goes against everything I have ever experienced, been taught,observed et al....about my chapter house, my fraternity, and the general GLO.

And this comment:"Likewise we also take pride in our southern and Christian heritage and beliefs, and the general way we carry ourselves" is very interesting given some of your prior postings.

And you say this:"We are a group of very good friends, who always will back one another and give each other a leg up. I realize this may offend some who subscribe to the fraternity manual idea that brotherhood trumps all and is the most important thing in life, but to each their own. Regarding why we couldnt go local, southern campuses arent overly fostering of local fraternities, and like I said, I'm not sure how the University would handle our land lease, insurance, etc"....but when I asked you about your rushees and pledges, you failed to answer that whole question.

You seem to want to pick from the University and National just what you want/need and ignore all else. You want a bed, a roof, a beer hall, and the insurance to cover RM but nothing else....? Again, do your rushees and pledges know this? Do they know that you seem to be turning into a near renegade group:"We are a group of very good friends, who always will back one another and give each other a leg up." That sounds more like a Dinning Club to me.

Changes can be from "outside pressures" ie the Real World. Many things have changed since the 1800's. Not all changes are wall paper to make things just look better to press, just to placate universities or whoever and what ever. Groups are not isolated from society. Because they are groups, they attact attention from society and if running outside of it......All groups.

What "Southern brothers" have you been around that feel the way you claim you do. I don't have a single friend at any of the major greek schools in the South that truly differ in the opinions expressed by Shinerbock. Most powerful Southern chapters most definitely take loyalty to their university and their own chapter over nationals. Keeping our Southern values and Christian based beliefs is also very important. It seems as if you think it is wrong of him to say that he doesn't use the term "brother" except in formal settings or using it to introduce, as in "this is my fraternity brother..." Why do you feel that is so incredibly important. I have extreme loyalty to all the guys in my fraternity and know that they feel the same. Using a word all of the time isn't going to strengthen or loosen our bonds either way. I think that those who preach about that kind of thing are also the ones that sit and read their manuals and rituals every night and can probobly recite it all by memory.......basically, the types that have their heads up nationals ass all of the time. I just don't see the point. We keep our relationship with nationals at a bare minimum and we do extremely well.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by jon1856

Boz130;
Very good posting.
Have seen/heard both sides: alumni stopping stuff and unforunatly alumni coming in during pledging and preaching "the good old days".
And when that happens, more times than not, house gets itself into hot water sooner than later....

While Boz130 is a LXA, He ahs been working with GLOs for years and has a working knowledge.

He has a program that He presents to Us as Greeks and is useful if anyone will listen.

But in reading this thread, I cannot understand how a Chapter can feel that they are more important than the whole=National Organization.

Each Chapter is a peg in the overall Spectrum of what it means to expand and be a functioning Organization. Grow or die.

Maybe I am The Lucky One being a LXA!

[macallan25]

Tom, I don't think Shiner, nor myself were tryinig to portray an attitude that came across like our chapters are better than our national organization as a whole. There are alot of things that nationals is trying to do that I don't like. I think the TG Initiative, much like the Balanced Man program is ruining chapters. I think the fact that so many good Southern chapters don't adhere to this nonsense has helped them maintain their selectiveness/exclusiveness. I tend to think that it is not a bad thing for a chapter to try to adhere to their longstanding tradition rather than try to follow this new trend of PC bulls*it.

[shinerbock]

Obviously I agree. I think something that plays into the differences we're seeing here is that we (in the south) often view joining a fraternity as a rite of passage, a traditional part of growing up. Thus, you do gain a lot during pledgeship, but you also usually enter into the fraternity with the core beliefs of the organization already instilled. The people who eventually join fraternities here come from families who take pride in their southern heritage, and place great value on faith, family, loyalty to country, etc...I think in other places fraternities act as a place where a wide array of people can get together and come to accept certain core values. In southern greek life, we seek out those who believe how we do and come from similar backgrounds as us. We have unending loyalty to our campus and our local chapter, and generally help our national org as well. But the problem arises when people from other chapters in the organization are fundamentally different than us. Sure, if they need a place to stay, help with rush, etc, we'd be glad to pitch in...but for example, a person from another chapter was running for public office in a nearby state, and asked at one point if I would bring our pledge class up to help with the campaign. As the pledge trainer, I had to decide, and as a conservative group with Christian values, eventually decided to respectfully decline. The individual was a democrat, and after examining his positions on issues and talking with brothers and pledges, we decided that we could not in good conscious aid the campaign to empower someone who fundamentally disagreed with us.

[jon1856]

"Shin"
Sorry I am a bit late to this party, some of us do work a living. (O, for the....... )
Even though I really do/did not have the time, I did something that I never have done on any type of a list. I read all of your posting; some of which are older than my sign in date.

We do not know each other, most likly will never met so we (all) know each other here alone.

I found some posting of yours enjoyable, interesting, well thought out and that I could agree with.

There are some that I will not, can not ever agree with. Why? In some cases we may look at the same thing and just based on life experience, teachings, training, et al we see it differently. Will that change? Not here, not now. Down the road perhaps; tis all about life.

We are all Family here, Brothers and Sisters. Family do have diagreements but let us not have a fight that turns this board into something that it should never be.

"Break a leg" in Law School.
As friends of mine say: "See you on the fields".
Jon-who remembers, and honors, the Battle of Resaca.

[shinerbock]

Thanks, I appreciate that. Now, regarding the War of Northern Aggression, we may need to start a new thread...

[jon1856]

LOL
Sir, while I have met, among others, Mr Lincoln, Adm Porter, Gen Custer, Gen. Grant as well as HRH's Official Observer, I also have met Gen. Lee and Gen. Stuart, and Gen. Hood. As well as many of the background people of "Gettysburg".

And Sigma Alpha Epilon is a true Southern Fraternity.
I am remembering, and giving honor to, one of our chapters.....