The Hazing Tradition

[Little32]

Interesting, thinking of changing the name and everything? Are they a part of one of the ones that has a deep southern legacy. Would they want to lose that?

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by Little32

Interesting, thinking of changing the name and everything? Are they a part of one of the ones that has a deep southern legacy. Would they want to lose that?

We've discussed this before. Repeatedly. Changing the name wouldn't be too difficult. The chapter I mentioned before also has been changing it's ritual for awhile bit by bit in so that it already does not reflect nationals. It's alumni from the last 30 years don't know the nationals ritual.

...if they were part of nationals with a deep southern legacy...why would it matter? What does nationals have to do with it? Nationals are inconsequential. It's the chapter that matters. Nationals is only good for insurance and for some chapters, even that may become economically unimportant.

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

I know of at least one fraternity that I named above that is planning on doing this in the not so distant future (5-10 years). Stockpiling money, readying alumni, etc. My fraternity is not in the position to do so, but could if given 15-20 years.

I don't think my nationals are bad enough to secede from. It wouldn't be worth losing the name. We have one guy that nobody likes that comes around once a semester, thats it.

[Little32]

[QUOTE=Elephant Walk;1631250]
...if they were part of nationals with a deep southern legacy...why would it matter? What does nationals have to do with it? Nationals are inconsequential. It's the chapter that matters. QUOTE]

That's an interesting perspective. Not so with my org. For us, our national legacy and history is of great significance as our name. We would not readily let that go.

[Elephant Walk]

I realize this.

But what does "national legacy" mean? It's not you. It's not even your chapter. It seems something to not have pride in, as it's not yours.

[Little32]

Are you proud to be an American (assuming that you are American--though it seems that I have read something that you wrote which suggests otherwise, at least I think that was you); or are you proud to be insert your state here. Would being a insert the name of your state here even mean the same thing outside of the context of an American nation.

Similiarly, would your chapter be what it is without the national organization? My chapter would not. We would not exist without the initiative of the national body to expand, and the national body would not have existed without the vision of our founders.

Everything our chapter does contributes to the national legacy along with the efforts of every other chapter; conversely, the national body shapes in many ways the goals of the chapter. We are all different, but we are all so much more the same, which is why every woman who pledges AKA is my soror, not just the ones who come into the organization via my chapter.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Little32

Are you proud to be an American (assuming that you are American--though it seems that I have read something that you wrote which suggests otherwise, at least I think that was you); or are you proud to be insert your state here. Would being a insert the name of your state here even mean the same thing outside of the context of an American nation.

Similiarly, would your chapter be what it is without the national organization? My chapter would not. We would not exist without the initiative of the national body to expand, and the national body would not have existed without the vision of our founders.

Everything our chapter does contributes to the national legacy along with the efforts of every other chapter; conversely, the national body shapes in many ways the goals of the chapter. We are all different, but we are all so much more the same, which is why every woman who pledges AKA is my soror, not just the ones who come into the organization via my chapter.

Say that!

Our sororities supercede all chapters and individuals but yet they are "ours."

[bowsandtoes]

Originally Posted by Little32

Everything our chapter does contributes to the national legacy along with the efforts of every other chapter; conversely, the national body shapes in many ways the goals of the chapter. We are all different, but we are all so much more the same, which is why every woman who pledges AKA is my soror, not just the ones who come into the organization via my chapter.

You make good points, but imagine a different scenario from one of our prospectives. You love your chapter and are proud of your national organization. But one year at a national meeting the big brass reveal that the organization is taking a new direction, one of which you might now approve. Your protests are not enough to overrule the decision and nationals continues down a path of which you do not approve. What do you do?

The only real choices you have are to a) secede and go local or b) continue on with nationals, but ignore them for the most part and distance yourselves. We're seeing chapters take option b more and more frequently as various fraternities such as Sig Ep, Lambda Chi, and SAE implement programs to reform chapters. Its happening slowly but I think in the next 20 years you will see a majority of chapters either go local or more likely, be shut down. That, or the nationals will bend to alumni pressure and stop forcing these programs on chapters.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by bowsandtoes

You make good points, but imagine a different scenario from one of our prospectives. You love your chapter and are proud of your national organization. But one year at a national meeting the big brass reveal that the organization is taking a new direction, one of which you might now approve. Your protests are not enough to overrule the decision and nationals continues down a path of which you do not approve. What do you do?

The only real choices you have are to a) secede and go local or b) continue on with nationals, but ignore them for the most part and distance yourselves. We're seeing chapters take option b more and more frequently as various fraternities such as Sig Ep, Lambda Chi, and SAE implement programs to reform chapters. Its happening slowly but I think in the next 20 years you will see a majority of chapters either go local or more likely, be shut down. That, or the nationals will bend to alumni pressure and stop forcing these programs on chapters.

If that is what you really think-OK.

[Little32]

@ bows: I do understand that perspective to an extent (I am young in my organization), and I think that most organizations have this sort of internal conflict happening at any given moment.

I don't, however, think that any chapter in my sorority would withdraw rather than staying and continuing to advocate for change within the org. (Here, I am talking about any sort of change, not just change related to pledging/hazing/MIP.)

I think that there is a fundamental difference in terms of perception of chapter relationship to national (or in our case international is correct) body. There is no Theta Omega chapter without Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. At least that is my understanding.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by bowsandtoes

What do you do?

Undergraduate chapters get over it.

When I was an undergad, I would've never thought it appropriate for a chapter to attempt to override the national organization. One major reason why I joined Delta was because I have love for Delta as a national entity. It is through my chapter that I was able to reach Delta and initially bond with Sorors. However, to remove Delta just because we disagree with something is ridiculous as far as BGLOs in general are concerned. Attempting to become a local would definitely not be received well. LOL. Not at all.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

I know of at least one fraternity that I named above that is planning on doing this in the not so distant future (5-10 years). Stockpiling money, readying alumni, etc. My fraternity is not in the position to do so, but could if given 15-20 years.

So one's Chapter would go from being part of a National Group Organization to being a small, local, eating and drinking club with a side order of let us ignore all rules, laws, and codes of conduct?
And if I were thinking of going to your school (which BTB was not and never has been on my radar) just what would make me interested in even talking to you?

And please do not even bring to the table anything about money.
Perhaps that is not fair as most likely that is what is going to be needed to cover
bills for damages and law suits.

[gee_ess]

In regards to Elephant Walk's take on fraternities at the U of A, I have to say I doubt very seriously any U of A alumna would support going away from their national group. There is too much tradition and name recognition, financial support, etc tied up in those groups. Once SAE chose to disaffiliate with national (just an example) the SAE alums would withdraw support. I don't think SAE wants to lose, for example,the CEO of Alltel's financial support and I can almost guarantee someone like that would not support the break.

Also, on the note of strong southern chapters being pulled. The Sigma Nu chapter at the U of A was strong for many years and after a series of incidents were pulled from campus. They are back now and in a new house, but were definitely pulled. They have a strong and influential alum base but were still pulled - it can happen.

[Kevin]

I'm not sure how influential our chapters at LSU, Mississippi State and Vanderbilt were, but all have been recently booted and recolonized.

Same goes for our Kansas chapter which has been in existence (and was historically a really good house) for a long time. I really can't see alumni bases full of politicians and the leaders of our business, legal and medical fields supporting and contributing to a withdrawal from their national just so their chapter could continue to participate in illegal activities.

I may be off base here, but that whole argument just doesn't sound at all plausible to me.

[bowsandtoes]

Rather than quote anyone I'll just try to give a general reply. The changes I'm talking about for the most part go beyond hazing, alcohol, etc. With Sig Ep the Balanced Man program has completely change the entire structure of chapters. They do things that we fervently do not agree with. However, as you mentioned we are still deeply tied to the history of Sig Ep, both at our school and nationally. In this case, it is nationals that is breaking away from that tradition and history. Ideally, I wouldn't want to break away from nationals or have nationals come down on us, I was just remarking that's the direction things seem to be headed over the past several years.

I also feel like this particular problem doesn't pertain to sororities as much, since much of it stems from the risk management issues that are prevalent w/ fraternities. Many of these programs were designed to combat the negative 'frat boy' stereotype, one that we all know is completely false and unfounded in the first place.