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  #1  
Old 05-15-2003, 05:25 AM
enlightenment06 enlightenment06 is offline
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Good Black Men/Good Black Women

Okay I've tried twice to start this posts and twice have had my lengthy thoughts erased, my patience is wearing thin, so, I'll be brief.

Black men and black women need each other. It's a fact.
The black family in the country has been under attack for centuries and we today are a product of our history. We are raised with the idea the typical black family is a single mother who's counterpart either refused to be involved or did not have the capacity. What results is that black women develop an inherent distrust in black men and think they don't need them, and black men don't fully understand how to nuture a black woman. Part of being a man is knowing how to treat a women. Thus you have a bunch of adult black males who don't fully know how to be men therefore they don't act as such. Black women are reared to overcompensate for their counterparts which is why we have the current situation we have today in higher education. So it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

When a good black woman meets a good black man she automatically expects him to be less than what she needs. When a good black man meets a good black woman he has to figure out the proper way to make her feel special and secure and dig through the shell that she has around her heart (that is of course, if he actually believes that she needs him). Without the proper communication and honesty a once promising situtation can turn ugly fast.

I'm no expert on relationships, this is just my opinion based off my own experiences and observations.

Any other thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 05-15-2003, 04:42 PM
sphinxpoet sphinxpoet is offline
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At the same time I think there needs to be a measure of the Black Woman as well. What issues in her life are causing her to find unsuccessful relationship? It cannot be all men. IN any successful relationship both partners must analyze what is the cause of the failure. Black men have a ton of negative issues and stereotypes that they must overcome. However that cannot be at the expense of black women. Black Women must perform that same analysis on themselves. What cause the issues that they experience internally(some that go beyond the Black Man) And then both sides must come honestly. What are my issues with the opposite sex? Why can I not align myself with someone like me? I will probably catch heat for it but you know what can a bro do!
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  #3  
Old 05-20-2003, 03:57 PM
Exquisite5 Exquisite5 is offline
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Re: Good Black Men/Good Black Women

Quote:
Originally posted by enlightenment06
Okay I've tried twice to start this posts and twice have had my lengthy thoughts erased, my patience is wearing thin, so, I'll be brief.

Black men and black women need each other. It's a fact.
The black family in the country has been under attack for centuries and we today are a product of our history. We are raised with the idea the typical black family is a single mother who's counterpart either refused to be involved or did not have the capacity.
I was not raised to believe this at all. To me, the typical black family is composed of a mom, dad and one or two kids- all living under the same house. This is my family, and that of many of my friends. I think you are basing your arguements on gross exaggerations.

People learn what they are taught. To that end, there is some validity to your summations, but to say the single parent household is the typical black family is not valid.

Men and women have shortcomings and we both need to work on ourselves before we can offer ANYTHING to anyone else. That is what I believe is the main problem with black America. We are so concerned with flossing and how things look that we fix the exterior before we fix the interior. So, everything looks like an Escalade on the outside, but in actuality its a broke-down, 68 Coupe De Ville on the inside. This causes problems because no one ever is aware that others are in need of help. Those needing help are too busy perpetrating- and doing it well- that people don't think to help them. Then when things fall apart- its unprecedented and unexpeced.

Also, due to a lack of fixing ourselves first- we bring kids into the world we can't care for because we can't care for ourselves. These problems transcend class, but are augmented by financial stress because financial stress is hard in ANY relationship. But even harder when the person(s) dealing with the $$ stress are not together internally.

After my last relationship I took two years to get ME in order. I am so much better and more equipped to offer my new mate all he deserves. Now when we meet we meet at a place of stability and can tackle anything. If we were falling apart internally, our "we" would only be the summation of our individual parts and not equipped to handle much together.

I truly don't believe its a man's lacking or a woman's lacking issue. It's an "I'm not together- whatever my sex- issue, so I keep attracting un-together people to me." It's not society- its personal bad choices.

Last edited by Exquisite5; 05-20-2003 at 04:02 PM.
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  #4  
Old 05-21-2003, 12:06 AM
straightBOS straightBOS is offline
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Arrow Just asking....

Can a Black man be dog simply because that is his personality? Or should the weight of the Black male species force him to pretend he is something he is not-- only for a "good" woman to find out differently after she's invested her time.

Can a Black woman be cautious because her mother taught her better w/o being labeled frigid? Or should she be gregarious, non-threatening, and needy so that she will not be pegged as "too strong" for a "good" black man?

Can we ever stop being Dr. Phil impersonators long enough to actually enjoy or learn from one-on-one relationships? Or must every relationship be tied to the fate of world?
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  #5  
Old 05-21-2003, 08:34 AM
Ideal08 Ideal08 is offline
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Re: Just asking....

Quote:
Originally posted by straightBOS
Can a Black man be dog simply because that is his personality? Or should the weight of the Black male species force him to pretend he is something he is not-- only for a "good" woman to find out differently after she's invested her time.

Can a Black woman be cautious because her mother taught her better w/o being labeled frigid? Or should she be gregarious, non-threatening, and needy so that she will not be pegged as "too strong" for a "good" black man?

Can we ever stop being Dr. Phil impersonators long enough to actually enjoy or learn from one-on-one relationships? Or must every relationship be tied to the fate of world?
Dang, these are some good questions...
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  #6  
Old 05-21-2003, 09:26 AM
sphinxpoet sphinxpoet is offline
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Re: Just asking....

Quote:
Originally posted by straightBOS
Can a Black man be dog simply because that is his personality? Or should the weight of the Black male species force him to pretend he is something he is not-- only for a "good" woman to find out differently after she's invested her time.

Can a Black woman be cautious because her mother taught her better w/o being labeled frigid? Or should she be gregarious, non-threatening, and needy so that she will not be pegged as "too strong" for a "good" black man?

Can we ever stop being Dr. Phil impersonators long enough to actually enjoy or learn from one-on-one relationships? Or must every relationship be tied to the fate of world?
I think it is not in the nature of the Black Man to be a dog but situations make diffrent people. I think if we raise our young men to view our Black Women as great women then we will go farther. Does that mean that cheating will stop? Probably not. Even if there were more Black Men than Women just some people will cheat.

Please let us define what is a good Black Woman and A Good Black Man. I cannot say just because a woman "takes care" of her man that makes her a good black woman. As such just because a man "takes care" of his woman makes him a good black man. I think a moral compass must be applied to what we consider good not what Dr. Phil has defined for us.

The Black Woman is frigid because since birth she has been made to feel as if she is not only competiting with the society that oppress her but other Black women that are fighting for that "good" black man. Mother always says "You better keep that good man" What about what is her level of happiness. Just because you are with a good man does not make him the RIGHT man for you. I think we need to retrain ourselves and children on how to handle relationships.

I was taught that a man that finds a wife finds his weight in rubies. Our black women should be more precious than rubies to us (Of course some of us like to have mutiple rubies ) But seriously we must change our whole state of mind in order to rise above these issues.
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  #7  
Old 05-21-2003, 07:13 PM
straightBOS straightBOS is offline
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Re: Re: Just asking....

Quote:
Originally posted by sphinxpoet
I think it is not in the nature of the Black Man to be a dog but situations make different people.
That is kinda what I was getting at...

Love, hate, pimp, play, do you... but one should not carry the handy-guide to pigeon-holing Black relationships in one's back pocket because we run the risk of accepting a plausible, yet recklessly stereotypical definition of the Black relationship.

I contend that the Black male/female relationship cannot be successfully defined nor can a proper way to go about them be prescribed because the experiences of and interactions between Black males and females are so varied --as they should be.
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  #8  
Old 05-24-2003, 09:30 PM
Insatiable_Ivy Insatiable_Ivy is offline
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For so long, black men have taken the black woman for granted and as a result, we have concluded that there are no "good black men" left. While an ever-repeated stereotype, I can say that I don't live by that saying. I know that there are good black men out there, but it takes looking at the deeper person, not just the surface. So many times women get caught up in what they see, and lose focus of what they can't see... Black women have patience, and the ability to see potential in our black men. They need us as much as we need them. We need to build strong black families... the families our grandparents had. The ones where they were married until "death do us part." We need to raise our children to respect each other, and be strong in their convictions, and believe in themselves. Black men, I love you... and stay strong!
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  #9  
Old 05-25-2003, 12:32 PM
Steeltrap Steeltrap is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Insatiable_Ivy
For so long, black men have taken the black woman for granted and as a result, we have concluded that there are no "good black men" left. While an ever-repeated stereotype, I can say that I don't live by that saying. I know that there are good black men out there, but it takes looking at the deeper person, not just the surface. So many times women get caught up in what they see, and lose focus of what they can't see... Black women have patience, and the ability to see potential in our black men. They need us as much as we need them. We need to build strong black families... the families our grandparents had. The ones where they were married until "death do us part." We need to raise our children to respect each other, and be strong in their convictions, and believe in themselves. Black men, I love you... and stay strong!
Good post. I would say that some of us were blessed with parents (I'm older, nearly 40) that put together strong black families.
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  #10  
Old 05-25-2003, 08:20 PM
REIKI REIKI is offline
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Re: Re: Good Black Men/Good Black Women

Quote:
Originally posted by Exquisite5
I was not raised to believe this at all. To me, the typical black family is composed of a mom, dad and one or two kids- all living under the same house. This is my family, and that of many of my friends. I think you are basing your arguements on gross exaggerations.

People learn what they are taught. To that end, there is some validity to your summations, but to say the single parent household is the typical black family is not valid.

Men and women have shortcomings and we both need to work on ourselves before we can offer ANYTHING to anyone else. That is what I believe is the main problem with black America. We are so concerned with flossing and how things look that we fix the exterior before we fix the interior. So, everything looks like an Escalade on the outside, but in actuality its a broke-down, 68 Coupe De Ville on the inside. This causes problems because no one ever is aware that others are in need of help. Those needing help are too busy perpetrating- and doing it well- that people don't think to help them. Then when things fall apart- its unprecedented and unexpeced.

Also, due to a lack of fixing ourselves first- we bring kids into the world we can't care for because we can't care for ourselves. These problems transcend class, but are augmented by financial stress because financial stress is hard in ANY relationship. But even harder when the person(s) dealing with the $$ stress are not together internally.

After my last relationship I took two years to get ME in order. I am so much better and more equipped to offer my new mate all he deserves. Now when we meet we meet at a place of stability and can tackle anything. If we were falling apart internally, our "we" would only be the summation of our individual parts and not equipped to handle much together.

I truly don't believe its a man's lacking or a woman's lacking issue. It's an "I'm not together- whatever my sex- issue, so I keep attracting un-together people to me." It's not society- its personal bad choices.
Even though that is your experience, statistics evidence a very different family experience for many people.

Percentage of all white families in the United States in 2001 in which both a husband and wife were present: 80.5%

Percentage of all African-American families in the United States in 2001 in which both a husband and wife were present: 47.9%

(U.S. Bureau of the Census)/JBHE Vital Statistics (http://www.jbhe.com)
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  #11  
Old 05-29-2003, 10:49 AM
Jamal5000 Jamal5000 is offline
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Hi enlightenment06,

Thank you for your intriguing post. I thought you mentioned some neat points:



What results is that black women develop an inherent distrust in black men and think they don't need them, and black men don't fully understand how to nuture a black woman.

I understand how you use the word distrust . Black women may develop less confidence in a Black guy. Women can't rely on a Black man to help them extend themselves in character. Black women also may get conditioned to see Black men as unable to fulfill their expectations in regard to displaying virtuous morality and uprightness.

On the other hand, do you really think Black women see themselves as not needing Black men or do you think that Black women look out on the prospective field of marrigable Black men and disheartedly see very few that live correctly and serve others unselfishly?



Part of being a man is knowing how to treat a women. Thus you have a bunch of adult black males who don't fully know how to be men therefore they don't act as such.

I agree that part of being a man is knowing how to treat a woman, but do you think that starts with the heart not in the mind? I teach the boys in my Sunday School classes that the first step in relating to a woman trains you to soften your heart by developing purity (or seeing women in a nonsexual way). When that happens, a boy automatically begins to treat a girl with kindness, with gentleness, and with politeness.

I was in Wal-Mart's pharmacy section about two weeks ago standing in the toothpaste aisle. A group of men looking at some mouthwash stood a few feet to my right Suddenly, a young scantily dressed woman passed by our aisle as she walked to the cold medicine section. I glanced at her slightly, but the group of men standing to my right ogled her and begin to follow her around. One of them even pulled out a camera and took a picture of her. If a man treated woman with all purity, then he wouldn't bat an eye at a woman like that let alone give her overbearing attention. He does not want himself to get preceived as sexualizing females in the viewpoint of that woman, any other women, or by any other man. He should avert his eyes from those images and focus on seeing a woman's goodness of heart, quality of correctness, and modesty in appearance.

When we as Black men see women as gentleladies in their inner qualities rather than in terms of their outside parts, then I believe that treating women correctly will just blossom in our lives.

Being a man means first having high morality.

When a good black woman meets a good black man she automatically expects him to be less than what she needs.

I agree with this, but I don't think black women should get excused for this attitude because by setting their expectations low for a prospective beau from the beginning, a woman may sabotage any chance he may have with her due to her unrealistically high criteria.

Back in college I had a female friend that told me she used a points system for rating any prospective beaus' actions in her company. When he does something good, he gains 10 points. When he makes a mistake, he loses 50 points. Already, she expects him to be less than what see needs because she created a standard so rigorous that his chances of failure sky-rocket above his chances of success.

If a nice guy comes over to meet a nice woman, she should see him like the ETS sees a student performing on the SAT: he should have a perfect score until he messes up. In other words, she should see him positively until he does something to lose credibility.

In reality however, she sees him negatively until he does something positive. I believe that attitude stems from a woman's overcautiousness: if a nice guy comes along, she still won't date him for no clear reason.

You must spend time with a guy in order to find out his positiveness or negativeness. Otherwise, you see an idealistic picture of a man in your mind and you make presumptions about him with no empirical basis to back up your viewpoints. So many women that I know prefer to hold back from allowing herself to officially let a nice fellow court her until she sees reasons to stop. They prefer to stay neutral ("We'll see what happens") rather than say "Yes, you can see me." or "No, thank you".

What can we do about it? I suppose we should continue to devote ourselves to serving others and try to treat women as they would like us to treat them.

When a good black man meets a good black woman he has to figure out the proper way to make her feel special and secure and dig through the shell that she has around her heart (that is of course, if he actually believes that she needs him).

I understand what you mean, but I disagree a little bit with the approach. lol...thankfully, I don't think it has to be quite so philosophical and complicated.

I just think a good black woman wants someone that gives her good conversation. If you get interested in what she has to say, then you will get interested in her life.

On the whole, a man should make sure that he tells a woman how she makes him feel without hinting anything sexual or generic. After you do that, if she wants you to court her, she will let you know. If not, then you gain her genuine esteem (which is what I find missing from most male/female relationships in general).

For example, I met a nice lady in one of my graduate classes last Fall. We started talking in class about all kinds of pointless things (Quality smalltalk...is that an oxymoron?) At the end of that first day, I gave her the only genuine compliment that I could give her: it was fun talking to you. I told her that she knew a lot of things that I didn't know and that she taught me a lot of stuff that I didn't know. Further in the year, she helped me get some class notes and assignments that I missed due to my job. I gave her another genuine compliment: you are very dependable and I thank you for all of your help and kindness.

Over the course of the whole year from fall to spring, I made sure she knew how I felt about her. Here is a sample of some of things that I told her:

1. You are always so cheerful in the evening.
2. Thanks for helping me study for the exam last night.
3. You really are well-organized, can you give me some adivce about it?
4. Is there anything that I can do to help you in our class?

None of these compliments and such are very unique, but notice that they are honest and genuine.

As I speak, this same woman holds such a high level of admiration and esteem for me that I sometimes feel embarassed by the all the attention. She seeks me out. She calls me. She wants to spend time for me simply because she realizes that I enjoy her company because of her plainness.

I hope some of this made sense.

Thank you again for the nice post, enlightenment06.

Last edited by Jamal5000; 05-29-2003 at 11:16 AM.
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  #12  
Old 07-22-2003, 02:32 AM
1savvydiva 1savvydiva is offline
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Lightbulb

Why has this one fell by the wayside? This was a very thought-provoking conversation!
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