Yale's Comprehensive Sexual Misconduct Guide

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

Actually, it was AGDee who asked you (for what I assume to be clarification about your position on this) the question below, which is still unanswered:


Is that what you're saying? IS her lack of physically fighting back what prevents this from being considered rape in your mind?

I thought both of you asked the same thing and that I was answering you both. Sorry if I did not make that clear. It's a straw-man argument, with regard to the Swarthmore case.

I can only wonder why she's on such a campaign.

It's in the news a lot. And more interesting to me as a topic than badges or recruitment.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Partly for two reasons:
1. People like you pretend feminism started this nonsense.
2. People like you equate the range of sexual victimization across billions of people with "turn the mechanics of sex into such a soul-sucking, lawyer-driven transaction, overseen by an army of campus administrators pouring over the minute details of individual sexual encounters".

"People like me". LOL!

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

"People like me". LOL!

I'm going based on your comments. Are you not posting based on your opinion? Let us know.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I'm going based on your comments. Are you not posting based on your opinion? Let us know.

There are not billions of people on our college campuses. I would call that fact, not my opinion.

But it is my opinion (and that of a lot of other women) that feminism has lost its way. Badly. And that this shit show on college campuses hurts women, and men.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by honorgal

It's a straw-man argument, with regard to the Swarthmore case.

It's not a straw-man argument at all. In fact, it's not even an argument. It's simply a question. Is her lack of physically fighting back what prevents you from considering the situation rape?

I get that the Swathmore case is difficult because of the relationship the two had previously had; I know lines aren't always so clearly drawn in the sand. But, in my opinion, when a woman says no and a man has sex with her anyway, that's rape whether the woman physically fought back or not.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

It's not a straw-man argument at all. In fact, it's not even an argument. It's simply a question. Is her lack of physically fighting back what prevents you from considering the situation rape?

. No. It wasn't even a factor in the Swarthmore case. That's why its a straw man.

I get that the Swathmore case is difficult because of the relationship the two had previously had; I know lines aren't always so clearly drawn in the sand. But, in my opinion, when a woman says no and a man has sex with her anyway, that's rape whether the woman physically fought back or not.

How about when the situation is reversed? A woman initiates, the man says no, and the woman persists? Is that rape?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

There are not billions of people on our college campuses.

Have there not been billions of people in the college system throughout the years? Think about it.

Originally Posted by honorgal

But it is my opinion...

"People like you"

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

I get that the Swathmore case is difficult because of the relationship the two had previously had; I know lines aren't always so clearly drawn in the sand. But, in my opinion, when a woman says no and a man has sex with her anyway, that's rape whether the woman physically fought back or not.

I'm not questioning why she didn't physically fight back. I do question why you would encourage such a total lack of agency in college women. I find it absurd. And dangerous.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Have there not been billions of people in the college system throughout the years? Think about it.

I did. There have not.

[1964Alum]

I posted Yale's guide as it DOES address some of these murkier, gray areas. It gives much more explicit definitions of the different forms that sexual aggression may take. And it was also found to be in compliance with Title IX guidelines, which many other campuses are wresting with now.

I have no doubt that individuals of good will are making good faith efforts to give clarity to some of these more complex issues. Hopefully, this kind of clarity will also give young men on campuses on college campuses across the country clearer boundaries and definition to what is acceptable and what is not.

This has nothing to do with "feminism" or any other political agenda but rather finding workable solutions in dealing with a most serious problem that affects all students.

Honorgal, Which GLO are you a member of?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

I did. There have not.

The National Center for Education Statistics---okay, I will say tens of millions of people have been in the thousands of colleges and universities over the years since the inception of colleges and universities 50-300+ years ago (rape isn't exclusive to co-educational institutions). Whether added together equals billion(s) of people over the 50-300+ years of the existence of thousands of college and universities in the USA...whatever. Happy now? Back to the point.

[robinseggblue]

Originally Posted by 1964Alum

Honorgal, Which GLO are you a member of?

Not gonna lie, have been wondering this too.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by 1964Alum

Honorgal, Which GLO are you a member of?

What does that possibly have to do with the topic at hand?

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by honorgal

. No. It wasn't even a factor in the Swarthmore case. That's why its a straw man.

How about when the situation is reversed? A woman initiates, the man says no, and the woman persists? Is that rape?

Your definition of straw man is different from any definition I'm familiar with. Asking a question in no way commits such a fallacy. To address your question, yes, I would say if a man says no and the woman persists, she raped him.

Originally Posted by honorgal

I'm not questioning why she didn't physically fight back. I do question why you would encourage such a total lack of agency in college women. I find it absurd. And dangerous.

I've never said I encourage a lack of agency in college women. I find it absurd and dangerous that you want college men to think it's not rape to have sex with women who have already told them no.

Originally Posted by honorgal

What does that possibly have to do with the topic at hand?

Well, it *is* Greekchat. Most contributors to the forum are affiliated with Greek life somehow.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by 1964Alum

I posted Yale's guide as it DOES address some of these murkier, gray areas. It gives much more explicit definitions of the different forms that sexual aggression may take. And it was also found to be in compliance with Title IX guidelines, which many other campuses are wresting with now.

I have no doubt that individuals of good will are making good faith efforts to give clarity to some of these more complex issues. Hopefully, this kind of clarity will also give young men on campuses on college campuses across the country clearer boundaries and definition to what is acceptable and what is not.

I think it's a good guide, and some of the things I like are that it say you need to get a "yes," verbal or otherwise, and generally encourages communication. It also talks about patterns of behavior and the excessive testing or violation of boundaries, which I think is really good, as I think that big violations often come from the same people who make little violations.

What I don't like is that, in the section on Prevention, there's not enough emphasis, well, not being a rapist. I think identifying rapey behavior and bystander intervention are good, but I'd like to see a section on behaviors that are not acceptable.